The gap between meeting someone and having a real relationship with them isn't filled by time or small talk.
Think about the people in your network you could actually call on for a favor right now. The ones where asking feels natural, not awkward. For most business owners, that list is shorter than they'd like. The gap between meeting someone and having a real relationship with them isn't filled by time or small talk.
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Hi, I'm Michelle Warner, and I'm a business designer and strategist. And in the 15 plus years I've done this work, I've noticed the same trend everywhere. Business owners are falling into the trap of centering strategies first, when they need to be centering sequence.
Because the reality is, the steps you take in your business, and the order in which you take them, is more important than how well you implement any single strategy. So on this show, my goal is to fix that by helping you find and trust your own sequence of actions, rather than blindly following someone else's strategy. Welcome to Sequence Over Strategy.
Why Asking Matters: How You Ask Builds Depth
Okay, to get started today, I want to ask you something. And I want you to think about the relationships in your network that actually matter to you. The ones where if you needed something, like an introduction, a referral, a favor, a borrowed audience, like I'm always talking about, you could ask and it would feel easy and comfortable and natural.
Now I want you to think about how many of those relationships you actually have, right? Where it really genuinely goes both ways, and it just feels easy. And so for most business owners I work with, the number, the answer to that question, it's smaller than you'd like.
And the reason isn't only that you don't know the right people, although goodness knows we talk about that enough over here. But it's also that you need to know how to turn those relationships, how to cultivate those relationships. I always say, like, you need to remember how to be a human in your business, right?
The same way you would cultivate a friendship. How do you build depth in a business relationship so that it is one that can feel easy over time, and that can feel like it's just not a heavy lift to collaborate together and to work together and to find interesting ways to support each other. And this gap, right, between first meeting someone and actually having a relationship with them is what today's episode is about.
It's answering that question of how do you build depth? How do you go from a nice first conversation with someone to somebody who, like, actually has your back and you have theirs? So this is a part of relationship marketing that people get tripped up on, and I get a lot of questions about it, so I thought it was a good time to revisit this topic of how do we build depth within relationships?
The Neighbor Story: When Not Asking Hurts Relationships
And to start this off, I'm going to tell you a story about my neighbors. I've told this story before, so you may have heard it before, but I go back to it all the time because it is so instructive, and it's something I have to remind myself of all the time. If you don't know this about me, I'm a pretty independent person.
I'm single, right? I work from home, and so I'm around a lot, and I don't necessarily need a ton of help because I'm around. My neighbors, on the other hand, they have a ton going on.
They have a couple of teenagers. There's just lots of activity and busy lives, and they're great. We're close friends even though our lives look different.
And so for a while there, there was a pattern that built up because their lives were so busy where they needed to ask me for favors like, Oh, we're gone today. Can you bring the garbage cans in because there's a huge windstorm? Or can you grab a package?
Can you feed the cats? Like all these things, and it's like no big deal for me. I literally didn't bat an eye.
That was no big deal. But then one day, my neighbor came and said something to me. She said, I'm going to ask you this, but I feel really awkward.
I'm starting to feel really awkward asking you this. And they were going on vacation, so it was a little bit of a bigger ask. And she was like, and I feel terrible asking because you never ask us for anything.
And we're never able to return the favor. I sat there with it for a second because from my end, everything was fine, right? But I realized that from her end, this didn't look like a mutual relationship when I would tell her, Oh, yeah, that's no big deal.
She was kind of checking off marks in her head about things that maybe were a big deal or that she decided might be a big deal for me, and I was just being polite. It looked really one-sided to her. And I realized, oh, I haven't been asking, and this was hurting the relationship, right?
My Grandmother's Lesson About Creating Reciprocity
And this then, it reminded me of my grandmother. And I've told this story before too, but we're going to tell them all in this episode because they're important to what we're trying to get to. And when I was growing up, my grandmother would occasionally send me to a neighbor to borrow a little salt or sugar.
And often, we didn't actually need any of it. We would be cooking, like she wouldn't make this up out of the blue, but she was like, Oh, can you run over, you know, across the street or wherever and ask them for, you know, like a cup of sugar or whatever. She would send us no matter whether she needed it or not.
And it was because she wanted the neighbors to feel comfortable coming over and asking us for stuff if they needed something. So she was like creating the conditions for reciprocity. She knew, and, you know, maybe it was a little bit of a weird thing to do to make up and ask, like you could have found something that you actually needed help with, but that's another story.
But she was like creating conditions for reciprocity. She was creating some depth in the relationship, right? She was making sure that the street ran both ways, and she understood the thing that I learned from her but then completely forgot when it was time to put it into action with my neighbors, that reciprocity and asking for things is one way of building depth, right?
And I don't think this is an uncommon story, by the way. I see the story floating around social media, this idea of like grandmothers sending you to ask. I kind of think about it as like some kind of modern era fable, because I think a lot of our grandparents did it.
And maybe I'm dating myself, but I suspect it might be like a depression era thing that they learned this during the depression because so many people did need help, neighbors and just people coming together. And, you know, the war era, the depression era, they kind of learn these things. But that's neither here nor there.
Other than the fact that they learned about the reciprocity, they learned about helping things, and they learned that that's what like actually makes community, right? So that's kind of the first and most important thing I want you to take away today when you talk about like how do we build depth in relationships is that asking should not and is not a burden. And we don't want to think about it that way.
And I talk about this a lot often, right? When in business relationships, and we talk about relationship marketing, and we talk about collaborating, we talk about finding ways to support each other, people get really nervous because they're like, oh, my gosh, I don't want to have to ask for something. Well, asking actually builds the relationship, right?
And it builds depth. And so it shouldn't be something that we are a little intimidated of or a little scared of. But and this is the key, right?
How you ask matters. So you don't just want to ask something right away. You want to ask things with some layers in it.
The Power of the "Because" Statement
And again, you're going to hear some familiar themes today because I just really wanted to put all these things together in one like, here's how you build up in relationships conversation. So the next thing that we're going to talk about, we've established that asking matters, right? You can actually ruin a relationship by not asking.
And that's a big statement. And people kind of look at me crazy when I say that, but it's true. Like we're human beings, we're meant to be reciprocal.
So you can ruin a relationship the way I was ruining relationship with my neighbors when you don't ask. But how do you ask and why do you ask and how do you kind of structure it in ways that build up? Here are some of the little cheat codes that you can do to help your asks be appropriate and build depth.
First one, good old because statement. You've heard me talk about these, right? And there's a whole episode on them.
So you can go back and refer to that if you'd like. But what is a because statement? A because statement is what I call something that came out of a famous study called the copy machine study in the 70s.
And this was where a researcher from Harvard sent three of her graduate students to cut in line at the copy machines in the library. Back in the 70s, you had to stand in line on the weekends and the lines would get long, especially if you were in a college environment to make copies. So she sent people in to cut in line.
And she sent them in with three requests, three ways to do that, three asks. The first ask was, may I cut in line because I need to make a copy? Second ask was, may I cut in line?
Third ask was, may I cut in line because I'm running late? And what's interesting about this was the success rates. May I cut in line had about a 60 percent success rate, right?
May I cut in line because I need to make copies was 93 percent. So big jump. May I cut in line because I'm in a rush because it's an emergency was 94 percent.
Isn't that interesting? So there was only one percentage change in the success rate between may I cut in line because I need to make a copy and may I cut in line because I'm in a rush, it's an emergency. And that was over 30 percentage points more successful than may I cut in line.
Why is this interesting? Well, let's look at those asks, right? May I cut in line, 60 percent.
May I cut in line because I need to make a copy, 93 percent. Those are the exact same ask if you listen to them closely. Everybody in that line needed to make a copy.
So may I cut in line because I need to make copies is a totally nonsense thing to say. And yet it was 33 percent more successful. And what this tells us is the takeaway should not be make up nonsense reasons why you're asking people for things, but the takeaway instead should be people like reasons.
Right. And so when you're going to ask somebody in your network for something, include that because statement. Don't say, can we grab coffee?
That feels violating. It can feel violating of your time anyway. But you can say, can we grab copy because I'm working through this thing that I know that you're a specific person in.
Would you mind offering some feedback? Even that can go a little far sometimes because you're asking for work for free. So you may ask, you know, can we grab coffee because and like list some way that you find them interesting or just give them a reason why you want to connect.
Right. That is not the big reason. It's not.
Can we grab coffee? Can we jump on Zoom? Because I want to find out if we can partner on this really big thing.
Instead, if you're wanting to build relationships, you start with those smaller asks. Right. And you put a reason behind them.
It's not just may we grab coffee. It's not just may we do this. You put a reason behind it.
That signaling, number one, that you care about the person and to the other person, they hear a reason. They hear a human connection. And so they want to move forward.
The Ask Ladder: Small, Medium, and Big Asks
And that's where we can layer on another piece of this, this building depth and relationships. Right. Because that reason can lead to an ask of different sizes.
Not every ask is created equal. And if you think about relationships and kind of terms of what I call like an ask ladder, it makes it a lot easier to know what to do and when. And what I mean by ask ladder is that the bottom of the ladder are small asks like low stakes, easy to say yes to stuff.
And these are the asks that build early familiarity. These are the asks like may I borrow a quarter cup of sugar? Like there's nothing on the line here.
Right. These are easy asks, but they build the relationship. Right.
They can be frequent. They can be low pressure. But when you do it, that builds reciprocity.
It builds the relationship. That's what I wasn't doing with my neighbors. Right.
When I had something that was a little heavy to carry to the curb for garbage, I wasn't asking them for help with it when I could have used help. And that could have been a small ask that I reached out to that would feel reciprocal with the types of asks that they were asking me for. And then there are medium asks.
Right. This is like a little bit more investment required. Maybe it's their time.
Maybe it's their opinion on something. Maybe it's whatever. But there's a little bit more that's required.
And then there are the big asks. And these are those asks that we're actually trying to get to in a relationship marketing. Right.
They require real trust. This is probably where you're borrowing audiences. This is when you're doing the big thing.
Right. The thing for your business. Is it a referral, a collaboration, an introduction to someone specific?
That's the one that you're trying to build towards. But you don't always want to do it the first time. If someone's in a real transactional mood, maybe you do.
But normally you want to start with some of these smaller asks to make it easier to get to the big ask. Because then when you get to the big ask, it doesn't even feel like an ask. It just feels like your normal way of communicating because you have built some depth in that relationship.
Right. And then there's one more thing to keep in mind. I'm going to give you a practical application of this.
Adding Specificity to Your Asks
But as we think about the tools that you have. Right. Number one, you know that you want to build some reciprocity, you know, you want to build depth.
Number two, we've talked about the fact that you want some specificity and some reciprocity in it. We've talked about the because statements. The last one that we can keep in mind is that specificity.
And when you're building that relationship, right, when you're building some of your because statements, when you're building some of your reasons, you want them to be specific to the person. Vague doesn't really stick. Vague doesn't build depth.
Right. We should catch up sometime. Or can you grab coffee?
There's not only no reason there, but there's also not even any specifics there. So if we look at kind of our ladder of how we would do this in terms of, you know, building depth in a relationship, the worst option would be can we grab coffee? That adds none of the cheat codes we've just talked about.
Then maybe you say, can we grab coffee? Because I want to get your opinion on something. OK, like now you've added a because statement, at least, but it's not necessarily a really compelling one.
Like now maybe if the stakes are low, it'll still work like it did in the copy machine study. But we want to respect these people. So we want to give some more specifics.
Right. May we grab coffee? Because I heard you talk about this one thing and I have a very specific idea of how I might apply it to my business.
And I would be curious to get your take on it. OK, now that's really respecting the person and that is both adding on a because statement and some specificity. And every layer that you add on in that way is going to build up, that's going to add respect.
It's going to increase your chances of being successful, which is ultimately why we're here. We're trying to build something successful. Right.
We're trying to build a relationship that you can stick with. And so that's what we're thinking about when we're thinking about building depth. The first thing is that we recognize that just having small talk is never going to build up.
Like there has to start being some reciprocity and real community in it. And then how do we respect that community? We respect that community by giving people reasons, by being specific about those reasons and about putting the appropriate level of ask onto those based on where the relationship is at and what the circumstances are.
A Real Example: The Backpacking Spreadsheet
That's it. Right. So let me give you a real example of this.
One of my best and most fun and longest running collaborations started with a backpacking spreadsheet. So there was somebody, you know, I'd done my Ideal Connection avatars and this was years ago now, but I knew who my Ideal Connection avatars were. And this was back in the day when we would be in Facebook groups connecting with people.
And so we were in a Facebook group and I knew who this person was. I had seen her around. I knew that she fit my Ideal Connection avatar.
It seemed like there was a lot of commonality there, but we had never connected before. And then we were in this mutual Facebook group and one day I saw that she put a post in there where she was asking for advice on how to pack for a backpacking trip. Obviously, nothing to do with business.
Right. Nothing to do with like either of what we're doing professionally. But I do happen to be a backpacker and I happen to have a very detailed packing spreadsheet about how to pack for those things.
So I commented and I said, oh, my gosh, like I have a whole spreadsheet for this. I would be happy to share it with you. And that was it.
I shared the spreadsheet. She packed for her backpacking trip. She found it really useful.
Amazing. Right. Ask ladder rung one small, specific, like genuinely useful.
She asked a question. I replied. Great.
Like there was no business agenda. There was nothing. It was just like, oh, like I am willing to answer your question.
Not only because I'm just a nice human being, but because like I know that, you know, there could be some really interesting things that we could do together. So she went on her trip like everything was great. We stayed connected.
I think we chatted about the trip afterwards. Kind of catching up on how things went. But then over time, through a series of those small interactions that went a little deeper, we caught up on what we were doing with our businesses.
Right. We shared things, we helped each other and we built a relationship. And then relatively quickly, we were talking about collaborations.
We were talking about things that we could do to help each other. And again, that has continued to this day. I think we've been collaborating.
I looked it up now because I can't even remember. It's been so long, like over seven years now. And it's been generally like a really productive and meaningful professional relationship for me.
But that relationship probably would have never existed if I had just reached out and said, you know, let's collaborate. Like she would have been like, who are you and why? Right.
I thought about the arc of that relationship and I wasn't targeting her in any way, but I knew who my ideal connection avatars were. And so when I saw an opportunity to start a conversation with someone who I knew fit that, I took it because I knew that starting a relationship in that way, again, would start at the rung of the ladder that was appropriate and that we could build from there. And so that's kind of the thing about the ask ladder and understanding how you're building relationships.
And why I talk so much about having ideal connection avatars is that you can recognize those people when you run into them in the wild. And that gives you the opportunity to then start building with them instead of like targeting one person and having it be, you know, all or nothing with that one person.
Putting It All Together
So let's land this.
Let's talk about where we've gotten and what this actually means. Right. When we're talking about building depth in business relationships, this is not some mystery process.
Right. It's not about being the most interesting person in the world, like whatever that commercial is. It's about doing a specific things in the right order and doing them consistently like everything else.
Right. It is about sequence over strategy. And so the first one is, you know, to know that you should include asking in your building of your relationships.
Right. Don't wait to need something big before you reach out, before you help, before you start cultivating those small asks, like give people the chance to show up for you and show up for other people. And that really sets a stage that you can build on to when you are doing that.
Always include that because statement. Give that reason. People like to have a reason.
It doesn't necessarily have to be profound. It should not be made up. I shouldn't have to say that, but I'm going to say that just to make sure we're all on the same base.
And the better the reason, make sure that there's a reason. And then with that reason, like we talked about, like be specific. Right.
And that's part of having a good reason. Like when you're talking about things and your thank yous and your asks and your whatever, always be more specific than generic. Tell them why and why them make them feel seen.
And then know what rung you're on. Right. With the ask letter, are you at the stage where you're asking small, medium or large?
And don't let yourself also get caught on one of those rungs, by the way, but be respectful of them where you're not just immediately asking for something big. And then when we start talking about filling that gap between a first introduction and a real relationship, like it's not just filled by time and checking in about the weather. It's filled in by these specific reasoned moments that we're talking about that are spattered with small, medium and large asks.
That's how we function. And when you think about your real life, that's how your family relationships work. That's how friend relationships work.
Right. We are always supporting and helping each other. And again, like it can feel a little awkward in a business sense, but it's really not.
Like if we sit here and break it down, it's really pretty straightforward where there's just these elements that are combined when you are starting to build these relationships. It's keeping them in mind. Right.
How are we asking? What's the reason? What's the specificity and what's the size of the ask?
When you always have that in the back of your mind, then you're going to be able to navigate these in strong ways that make sense for your business and for you where you want to go. So as always, my friends, thank you for being here today. If this episode helped you, I'd be so grateful if you shared it with someone else who it might help or if you leave a review that helps others find it.
So if you can do either of those things, I will deeply appreciate it. And in the meantime, I'm always up for a conversation. So if you have questions about this or other episodes, you can always head to themichellewarner.com, jump on the newsletter, drop me an email or even message me letting me know what you'd like to hear more about on this podcast or what questions you have. I always love hearing those because they help me dictate the direction of the show. I will see you back here in a couple of weeks.