In this episode of Sequence Over Strategy, Michelle breaks down why that way of thinking is holding you back and why real reciprocity rarely looks like a simple one-for-one exchange.
So many business owners hesitate to reach out for collaborations or referrals because they’re convinced they don’t have enough to offer in return. Maybe your audience feels too small, maybe you can’t refer clients back, or maybe it just feels awkward to ask without a perfectly equal trade lined up. In this episode of Sequence Over Strategy, Michelle breaks down why that way of thinking is holding you back and why real reciprocity rarely looks like a simple one-for-one exchange.
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Hi, I'm Michelle Warner, and I'm a business designer and strategist. In the 15 years I've done this work, I've noticed the same trend everywhere. Business owners are falling into the trap of centering strategies first, when they need to be centering sequence.
Because the reality is the steps you take in your business and the order in which you take them is more important than how well you implement any single strategy. So on this show, my goal is to fix that by helping you find and trust your own sequence of actions rather than blindly following someone else's strategy. Welcome to Sequence Over Strategy.
The Question I Hear All the Time
In every episode of our show, I answer a real question from a real entrepreneur who's struggling with a real challenge in their business. And today's question is one that I hear often, and it came up again when I was recently hosting a special one-day intensive of my Build Your Relationship Funnel course. And here are a few versions of that question that I get, and they might sound different, but they're actually the same question.
One is, hey, Michelle, I've been thinking about my ideal connection avatars, and I know exactly who might be a good fit, but I won't be in a position to refer back because my clients would actually work with them first. So why would they want to refer me to their clients? So what we're saying here is this is in a borrowed audience asking for a referral situation, and they're saying, I know exactly who would be a great person to be referring clients to me, but I'm worried because my clients actually aren't a good fit for them.
And that might sound weird on the surface, but it happens because maybe a client works with somebody first and then comes to you. So then when they're done with you, it's not like you need to refer them back to that person, right? So this is a question that I get often.
Why would somebody want to refer me if I can't refer clients back? And then a second version of this is something along the lines of, Michelle, I hear you on borrowing audiences to meet new people. That makes sense to me.
But when I look at who I'd love to reach out to, to pitch that, to do a collaboration, I get nervous because I realize they have a larger following than me or have been in business longer. And then I don't feel like I can provide the same value back. I can't trade.
I can't trade list for list, right? If I borrow their audience, I don't have an audience to offer to them. So I worry that they're going to blow me off.
If any of this sounds familiar, you are not alone. Both of those questions, again, essentially they're the same question as we're going to talk about them today. These are super common, and I understand it.
It's a normal mindset to have, and it's a normal worry to have. I mean, I have certainly fallen prey to it before, and I know this stuff. I teach this stuff.
Why Simple Trades Don’t Actually Work
But it's also usually rooted in some kind of truth, right? So I can just tell you, oh, it's a mindset thing. Get over it.
Here's the logic behind it. But before I do that, I want to acknowledge that it's usually rooted in some truth, meaning we have all likely had some bad experience where we've kind of felt and take advantage of, and we don't want to do the same to someone else. And so I get why it's happening to you, but it is a mindset that I need you to break if you're going to break through with relationship marketing.
So I am going to talk through the logic with you today, and hopefully by the end of this, you can see my point of view where these are not stumbling blocks that are going to put up a barrier for you. And that's because when you can understand the real value exchanges that are happening in reciprocity, that are happening in these borrowed audiences, the world opens up to you. It's such a cheesy statement, but it's true.
The opportunities open up when we unlock ourselves from thinking about the most obvious way that this reciprocity would happen, right? Because you start to build mutually beneficial relationships from day one when you can think more broadly. You collaborate with people who actually want to help you, and you stop feeling guilty about asking these things because you're not having that anticipatory freak out that they're going to say no or that they're going to think you're ridiculous for even asking.
And the most important thing is that you realize that equal doesn't mean identical. You realize that equal can mean different types of value, different types of things that equal the same value. And again, I have to tell you, I've been relationship marketing for like 15 plus years now, and I can tell you hand on the heart that I can't remember one time when a collaboration was a simple trade.
So when these example questions that I was telling you that come up all the time, it's always what I would call a simple trade, meaning I want them to refer me, but I can't refer them back. So that's obviously not going to work, is the thought process, right? Or I want to borrow their audience, but I don't feel like I have an equal audience to offer back.
Again, those are simple trades because they are assuming that the thing, the asset, if you will, that's going to be involved in reciprocity is the same on both sides. And that's not the case. And like I said, in 15 plus years, I don't remember a time when I had a successful simple trade like that or really when I've ever done one.
Thinking in Real Value Exchanges
I mean, I'm sure it's happened at some point, but I can't remember one. What I can very easily remember and don't even need to remember because it's my current reality is that all of my best collaborative colleagues, my best ideal connection avatars, we've never once traded something one for one. And we've never once had those types of simple trades because we understand that the value capture comes from somewhere else.
So let's talk about where it comes from so that you can also see the light. As we get into that, let's talk about why thinking you have to trade like for like is not a great mindset to be in and why it actually doesn't make a lot of sense. Because this advice assumes that the only value you hold is the same value that the other person holds.
And I kind of get that, but right from the jump, you can think how this makes no sense when you apply other examples to it. When you put this out in the real world and think about other situations that are happening, you will see that this actually makes no sense. And this is one of my tricks, by the way, when you're kind of stuck in a mindset.
I like finding outside examples of the same thing that can show and remind you that it's kind of a bit nonsensical. So to do that, let's look at other value exchanges because this is essentially what we're talking about in relationship marketing, right? When we're talking about having collaboration partners, referral partners, we are talking about a value exchange.
So let's look at other value exchanges. Here's one. I went grocery shopping today and no, I really did.
I'm not making this up. This story is going to sound like a completely common like MBA economics example out of the textbook, but I really did this. I exchanged some money for some eggs.
And again, I'm simply sitting here laughing because I know that I read this in an economics textbook someday, but that's why we use these examples because they are obvious, right? And today I did literally trade some money for some eggs. What I did not do, by the way, is trade eggs for eggs, nor did I trade my dollars for somebody else's dollars, right?
Like right there, it's very obvious. If we were to do a simple exchange, what I would call a simple exchange, like the ones that the folks in these questions are worried about, then I would be trading exactly what I have for exactly what they have. It would be the same thing.
Real-World Collaboration Examples
I would be trading eggs for eggs or dollars for dollars. But I'm not doing that. I traded what I had in value, which were dollars, for what they had in value to me, which were eggs.
This doesn't sound weird. This sounds very, very basic, right? You're sitting here like rolling your eyes like, yeah, dumb, Michelle.
But again, the same thing applies to referrals and to audience borrowing. There are different types of values that are being exchanged here. And in all the different types of collaborating that you're doing in relationship marketing, this is true.
And there's no kind of waiting until you feel like you've earned the right to ask because you know that you can offer the same thing in return. You don't have to sit around and wait until you have the exact same thing as the other person. Instead, you want to figure out what is their version of dollars.
If you want eggs, if the value for you is eggs, a.k.a. a referral or a borrowed audience, and you're going to trade that by using your dollars, well, what's the dollars for the other person? Please don't literally pay them. That is not at all what I'm talking about.
But what do they value? Because they probably don't value eggs in the same way you value eggs, right? So you have to understand what creates value for both of you.
And that value, again, does not have to be identical. It doesn't have to be this kind of simple trade. We can even kind of think of some of the different categories that people might find value in.
And type one is kind of a simple trade, right? Sometime that might happen. And so sometimes when you talk about it and when opportunities come up, the exception could happen and you may find that you want to trade an audience for an audience.
If those are of equal value to yourselves, go for it. But again, if you're not in that kind of one-on-one reciprocity, if you're not in that simple trading, let's not do that. Let's not do that.
Another option that you can have is when you offer is different but still valuable, right? So you may say to someone, like, I would like to be on your podcast and in return promote something for them. Or maybe you can make an introduction for them.
That is something that I have happened to me quite a bit is I have been a guest on a podcast and the podcast host has asked me to introduce folks to them in exchange. So that's the value exchange. I don't have a, well, I do have a podcast.
You're listening to it right now, but I don't bring interviewees on. And for years, I was a podcast guest before I had this podcast, right? The trade is not equal.
I'm not saying come on my podcast. They are saying, hey, I would love to have you on the podcast. And you know what?
Like, I know that you know these XYZ, like they'll name a couple of people. Would you mind making an introduction? Yeah, of course, because that's an equal value exchange, right?
In our eyes, that's an equal value exchange. And so those are types of things that can happen. You can look at the person who you want to collaborate with and think what is a different but equal type of reciprocity?
What might somebody else want that is of value to them? And another way you can think about this is kind of future reciprocity, right? And you kind of build it in for later.
And you're talking about a collaboration that you're going to do in the moment that might bring value to you or might bring value to the other person. And then you're telling them, oh, I'm doing this in six months. You know, would you be game to participate?
So again, maybe you have an event coming up or maybe you have a special marketing thing or maybe you have a way to highlight people. And so in February, you are going to be the one receiving the value, right? You're going to do whatever type of collaboration is happening.
And then you're telling them, hey, in October, I have this thing coming up and I would love to include you that and it can look different, but it doesn't have to be this immediate one-to-one trade. So that's another thing that can happen. Other things that can happen is, again, you can open doors for people or you can find what else is valuable that they need.
And this comes back to like the referral example. When you know that somebody who works with your clients right before your clients would work with you, that that's like an obvious referral partner, right? But in that case, you're not going to be able to refer the people back.
That's not going to make a lot of sense. And so what we want to do in those cases is think through, again, kind of like the example I was using for the podcast host, what might be valuable to them. So they're going to send you clients, what is valuable in return?
That's not a client, but is equally valuable. Oftentimes you may know people, like if you're that close that your clients work with somebody right before you, if you're that close within like an ecosystem, you probably know other people that might be able to offer those referrals. So you may be able to offer an introduction to the person who you want to send you referrals.
You may be able to offer them an introduction to somebody else who would refer to them. So like now we have a three-way circle, right? And that is the way that you want to think about it is what are the different types of value exchanges here that make sense?
Here's another different but equal example. When we're talking about different but equal, maybe you are providing something to an audience that is missing, and the owner of that audience knows that it's missing, and it stresses them out that it's a little missing. And so in exchange for you getting in front of that audience, what does the owner of that audience get?
The owner of that audience gets kind of a reassurance that their audience isn't missing something that may feel missing to them right now. So, and we're going to talk about some real world examples of this stuff in a second, but I just want to open your brain to the idea that there's a million different types of value out there. The same way I often talk, and you know in the business design of things, I will often talk about the fact that there are different types of profit.
Like in my world, profit can come in the form of cash, it can come in the form of time saved, it can come in the form of energy preserved, right? In the same way here, value can come in different forms. Value may come in the form of a really key introduction.
It may come in the form of you providing missing information. It may come in the form of you being a sounding board. It can come in so many different formats.
And so I don't want you to limit the idea that the only type of value you can bring, again, is an equal trade. Let's talk about some real world examples of this so that you can understand what we're kind of thinking through. For, you know, a couple of the different scenarios where we were talking about the hang-ups that we had at the beginning where, oh, I was looking for a referral, or I was looking for, you know, I don't want to trade an audience one-to-one.
So let's tackle the latter one first, where you want to borrow an audience, but you know that you don't have an equal audience to offer back, and that's like stressing you out. Well, what if the value, again, wasn't in the audience swap? What if the value wasn't what you bring to their audience?
So I was just teasing this example, but it is a very, very real example from my business. If you're familiar with my business, we talk about networking here a lot. We talk about relationship marketing a lot.
But the very first time that I really started doing that was when I started teaching a course called Networking That Pays. Networking That Pays came about because of a situation exactly like this. I had a close friend and collaborator who has a very large audience, and she teaches beginning business skills.
Her program does not include networking. And we were chatting one day, and again, she has a much bigger audience than I did. At the time, she had an astronomically larger audience than I did.
And we were chatting, and I was just catching her up to speed with some of the things I was doing in my business. And I told her, hey, you know, I've really noticed that my one-on-one clients at the time, I really only worked one-on-one, so I've noticed that my one-on-one clients really struggle with networking. It's a thing that I have actually had to figure out for myself.
So I've put together this, at the time it was a Google Doc, like I put together this Google Doc of a process to help them with it. And she said, oh my gosh, all of my students need that. She's like, I know that my students would get such better results from my program if they had this information.
And she said, will you please come teach it to them? And I said, yes. And so now I continue to teach her students about networking.
And again, at the time, I don't even think I had an email list. I may have had an email list, but I wasn't trying to grow it at all. Because again, I just worked one-to-one, mostly referral basis.
So I didn't need an email list. She's offering me a very considerably sized email list to get in front of. And so in our terms of what we're talking about here, I would have felt very guilty about taking that opportunity because I didn't have an audience to offer to her.
She could have cared less about that. Her marketing's great. She doesn't need help with that.
But what she needed help with was getting her clients better results. They were already getting great results with her, but she knew they would get better results if they knew this networking information. And frankly, she didn't want to deal with figuring out how to teach it.
And so when we talked and she realized I knew how to teach it, she's like, come on in. Please teach this. And so a lot of you who are thinking about these collaborations and are just getting started, if you're getting caught up in the size of your audience, don't do that.
Get caught up and start thinking about how your ideal connection avatars, how their clients might benefit from hearing something from you. Right? You probably talk about something that is very complementary to what the person who owns the audience does.
And so that complementary information may ultimately help that person look better. And so you can think in terms of value exchange, you can think through, what can I add to the table? What can I add to the conversation that would be insanely valuable for this audience?
Because that is often a trade. Because that is a valuable trade for the person on the receiving end because their audience is going to get better results from their stuff. So they're gonna look better.
Everyone's gonna be happier. That's a really good trade. So when you're thinking about that audience borrowing question and oh my gosh, I don't have an audience of the same size, keep in mind that there are other value exchanges there that you can tap into that work just as well.
The other one is, you know, find the thing that you'll do in place of the referral. And again, this is a situation, the specific question that came up was, you know, we would love to receive referrals from this person who works with all of our clients prior to us. However, we feel bad because we're not going to be able to refer them back because they just worked with that person before us.
Right? This makes sense. But we can see that this person would be a phenomenal referral partner to us.
How can we still do that feeling good about it? And knowing that maybe the reciprocity is not going to immediately be there. Well, again, in these cases, often if you work that closely in a linear fashion, often there's a little bit of an ecosystem in place, meaning that potential client may be working through a process.
And so who else is in that ecosystem? Do you know them? Right?
Can you open a door in some way? Can you help facilitate in some way for the person who you are asking referrals of to get referrals in some other way if they're not directly from you? Can you be a little bit of a brainstorming and introduction partner and say like, hey, so instead of calling them up and saying, will you send me referrals?
You can call them up and say, hey, I have noticed that our clients take this journey and you kind of label off, number off where those clients are going. What are they doing? In what order?
And you can say like, hey, we're third in the order and you're second in the order. So I can see a benefit and I would love to have a conversation about potentially us partnering up and referring so that our clients can have a smooth journey. And oh, by the way, I also know this person who does the first step.
And so why don't we bring them to the table as well so that you're covered and we kind of go full circle in that way. So that's a way to think about it. And this is another one where often those folks, it depends what industry you're in.
Some industries are a little bit more transactional than others, but often folks are really comfortable and happy to have a safe place for their clients to land. If they are in a situation where it is that obvious of a referral pattern because their clients need something after them, they don't feel great about just saying, oh, good luck, go find this. This is what you need.
They want a soft landing place that they can trust and that they can probably collaborate a little bit with and that there can be a handoff to. There is a lot of value in that. They've just worked with their client.
You know how you feel when you're working with a client. You want that to be a good experience. And so knowing that you have a safe handoff set up and that your clients are going to continue to feel great instead of leaving you and then going home and sitting around and trying to figure out what to do next, that's a really valuable thing.
So don't discount the value of being a partner in that way and really being a resource and talking about it in terms of a customer journey. This is probably not going to be super successful if you just show up and say, hey, will you refer people to me? And they don't see what the value is that you are.
But if you're explaining it to them within the ecosystem of a journey and they can see that and you can talk in terms of, gosh, I would love to partner with you, understand, be a really safe landing spot. There's a ton of value in that. And then again, if you can bring it to the table and think about the whole circle, then there's even more value in that.
I keep saying value in that, but that's the game. We want to put ourselves in the other person's shoe and understand what might be valuable to them and not just get caught up in our own stuff, in our own mindset stuff of assuming that we're not good enough. Because that's essentially what's happening when you're looking at these situations and you're just immediately saying, oh, they would say no.
What's actually happening there is you're assuming you're not good enough and then you're cutting off your own brain power to figure out what is good enough and what is valuable. So let's stop doing that and let's get creative instead.
Bringing It All Together
Let's sum this up.
When we do that, we're in a position to open up the world of value exchanges and understand what possibilities there are instead of staying stuck in this very simple traded mindset. So again, you do not and you strategically should not have to offer the same thing when you're collaborating. And I say strategically should not, this is kind of a sequence over strategy thing, right?
Often, if you are trading same for same, you're missing a bigger opportunity. You're not asking the right questions first. You're just kind of going in at a high level and assuming, oh, this is what we need to do.
This is what we have to do. You don't want to do that. We don't want to do that.
We want to set it up strategically correctly. So in a sequence over strategy way, if you are going into something, assuming it is a simple trade, you've actually missed a step. You've missed the step of saying, what is the most valuable thing that we could do here?
As we saw again, and it's the grocery shopping example, right? Like I literally exchanged eggs for dollars today. I did not exchange dollars for dollars or eggs to eggs.
And so it actually makes no sense to just assume that this is a like for like trade. And so that means that borrowing audiences, again, become a question of what the audience needs the most. And then in turn, you know, what the person who owns that audience needs the most.
And that's what I would love for you to leave this episode with, is that reminder that the first question you ask in our sequence over strategy is, what are the different values here? What do people want? What do people need?
Not just assuming that it's that one-to-one trade. So with that, I'm going to leave you to go out there and dream up some value exchanges. Thank you as always for being here.
If you haven't yet done it, please subscribe and even rate the show wherever you're listening. It makes a huge difference in others being able to find it. And if you want to go deeper on building strategic reciprocal relationships that actually work for your business, you're always welcome to check out my Networking That Pays course at themichellewarner.com.
We dive into exactly how to do all this identifying of the right people, think about approach collaborations and how to meet these folks. And you can get started with this at themichellewarner.com slash free training. Give you a little bit of an overview of these things I talked about today in terms of the ideal connection avatars and how to think about building these networks of people where you can have creative conversations about value exchange.
With that, my friends, I will see you back here in two weeks.